There are some scary people out there (Ziggystyles and Dr). You ever notice how people are commenting here as if they have first hand knowledge. These people are so convinced they are right they are willing to try to influence someone else to thier belief.

I dont beleive I was preaching.  I was explaining.  I dont want Icon to convert because of what I believe.  If he is to undergo a leap of faith, it should be of his own making and decision, no one else's.

If you can show me where I am preaching or trying to convert him, quote it and show me.  But you cant.  Can you not even understand a rational and sane debate without thinking that everyone is a Jerry Falwell?  You truly are afraid of your own non-beliefs.  And for that, I offer no arguments, just pity and sympathy that one day you will be strong enough in your own beliefs, whatever they are, that they can stand on their own and not be threatened by someone talking about their beliefs.

Not being perfect is forgetting to set the alarm and getting up late. You need to ask for no forgiveness for that. But making a mistake is not robbing a bank. That is wrong, and you knew it before you did it. That is what you are asking forgiveness for. Not being human, but making wrong decisions. Free Will, remember?

If I rob a bank, I think there are some people whose forgiveness I should ask for. If I ask God for forgiveness, how will I know he forgave me? Because a little voice in my head says so? That's my conscience. Or maybe just wishful thinking. Besides, if God is all-loving and all-forgiving, why should I even have to ask?

I admit you aren't as bad as Zigg here but here is 1 quote Dr:

"3: So when catastrophe hits, we must do what is best for ourselves and our brothers. If he were to interfere, then we would be just puppets on a string (much like the angels). Man, according to the JCI God, is alone amoung the heirachy in being able to do good as an act of free will, and bad, for the same reason.

In the end, we are being tested. We may be found wanting, but then it is Man's decision in that regard, not God's.

Your not worshipping him is just another nail in the coffin of man. But there are many reasons that man will be saved and one of the greatest just died this past week. Each man and woman has the capacity for good and evil within themselves. The end result is how many choose each."

This is not preaching??????????????? This is a big problem with the whole scenario. Why not say nothing if you are not absolutely certainly willing to commint somenone elses life to your cause. Think about it. Would you agree to raise a child so light hardly. I admit that most be do not think this way but they should. And, I know what I believe, I am unwilling to state my belief in the unlikely manner it will have influence someone. You speak here as if God told you this. In reality a man wrote this down somewhere and you are passing it on.

"Iconoclast (a person who attacks establishment for the hell of it I'm sure) is not just half an ass, but a whole one."
"you sawed-off- runt, little chicken-shit. "

Now now Wayward-Fish, let's not persecute Iconoclast for his beleifs now shall we? That would go against your religion now wouldn't it?
Love your enemies, need I say more?

I deleted wayward-fish's post for name-calling. And I am going to blacklist him. Nice language for a Christian. Get down on your knees and beg forgiveness. You are a perfect example of why myself and many other people turn their backs on religion, and I'm pretty sure that every Christian who has been posting to this article is sorry that they are associated with you.

Now now Wayward-Fish, let's not persecute Iconoclast for his beleifs now shall we? That would go against your religion now wouldn't it?

In theory, yes. In practice, no.

Exactly what I meant, Iconoclast.
Also, since you deleted Wayward-Fish's post, I wouldn't mind if you deleted mine either since it quotes the parts of Wayward-Fish's post you were trying to delete.

Now, not to get off topic, I have a question I'd like answered(intelligently and in a respectful manner please).
Why did God make it possible to be/do evil? Why did that choice have to be included in the package of Free Will? Why was a paradigm created where there is good along with evil/ right and wrong? Earlier in the post it was stated that it was better to be loved by choice rather than force, but if "force" wasn't created, we wouldn't know the difference, and God wouldn't have to(He wouldn't have any forms of love to compare to). Why not have a realm where there is right/good and X choice that had no consequence or "bad" side to it and that only God knows what it could be? But this good/evil and right/wrong law didn't start with humans either. Satan, one of God's own angels, defied Him and was banished to Hell forever. An angel... doing such a thing, God making it possible, and creating punishment.

Again, I'm not trying to bash God or Christians, I just simply don't understand it. If anyone can answer without using one of those all-purpose answers that just don't do it for me,(i.e. "He did it out of his infinite love for us") please do. I am also well aware the a good chunk of my questions could be answered only by God, but please do your best.

Axis, maybe I shouldn't have deleted that post, because every post since then references that one. You don't want me to delete your most recent one, do you? Maybe I won't blacklist him. Putting him in his place is fun.

Why did God make it possible to be/do evil? Why did that choice have to be included in the package of Free Will? Why was a paradigm created where there is good along with evil/ right and wrong? Earlier in the post it was stated that it was better to be loved by choice rather than force, but if "force" wasn't created, we wouldn't know the difference, and God wouldn't have to(He wouldn't have any forms of love to compare to). Why not have a realm where there is right/good and X choice that had no consequence or "bad" side to it and that only God knows what it could be? But this good/evil and right/wrong law didn't start with humans either. Satan, one of God's own angels, defied Him and was banished to Hell forever. An angel... doing such a thing, God making it possible, and creating punishment.

I suppose our will wouldn't be completely free if we weren't able to do evil. I've always said you can't have one without the other. They balance each other. Have you read Mark Twain's Letters from the Earth? He says people and animals are experiments of God's in Morals and Conduct.

Well, it's not my comment board, so you can do as you please. I only mentioned you deleting my post with Wayward-Fish's quotes to express that it was alright with me, but I suppose leaving the post there would make sense. I don't know what backlisting is in relation to forums. I'm obviously new to this (*"Anonymous User" next to name*), but I don't like him much, and I'd punish him in some way on this forum if I had a comment board and he come on it warping the point of it.

"I suppose our will wouldn't be completely free if we weren't able to do evil. I've always said you can't have one without the other. They balance each other. Have you read Mark Twain's Letters from the Earth? He says people and animals are experiments of God's in Morals and Conduct."

Well my whole point was basically if you're God and you have a bowl of "pure non-existance" and the first thing you add is a good thing, why adulterate it by throwing in something bad? Why have a bowl of perfect cake mix and throw poison in at the last minute?
I haven't read that book, but it sounds interesting. Is the whole thing based around something similar to the idea that "people and animals are experiments of God's in Morals and Conduct", or is that just one small part of it?

I haven't read that book, but it sounds interesting. Is the whole thing based around something similar to the idea that "people and animals are experiments of God's in Morals and Conduct", or is that just one small part of it?

There are several other sections that don't have anything to do with religion. The letters are from Satan after he has arrived on Earth. He observes and writes letters to angels Gabriel and Michael. "Man is a marvelous curiosity. When he is at his very very best he is a sort of low grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm....He believes he is the Creator's pet. He believes the Creator is proud of him. He prays to Him, and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea? Fills his prayers with crude and bald and florid flatteries of Him, and thinks He sits and purrs over these extravagancies and enjoys them....He sits on his throne, and looks out over his miles and miles of tempetuous worshipers, and smiles, and purrs, and nods his satisfaction.....as quaint and naive a spectacle as has yet been imagined in this universe, I take it."

Then there are "Papers of the Adam Family." Adam and Eve's Journal. God told them not to eat the fruit of a certain tree, or they would die. But they had never seen an example of death, so they didn't know what it meant.

my whole point was basically if you're God and you have a bowl of "pure non-existance" and the first thing you add is a good thing, why adulterate it by throwing in something bad? Why have a bowl of perfect cake mix and throw poison in at the last minute?

as i've mentioned elsewhere, i've a project in development--already greenlighted but i'm not at liberty to divulge many of the contractual details--dealing with some of the issues yall have been discussing here. its working title is 'The Beginning Before In The Beginning: A Genesis Prequel'. this unprecendented docu-drama draws heavily on exclusive interviews i conducted during three years of unrestricted access to god...as well as lots of archival resources he turned over to me. here's just a very tiny taste of what's in store for you once it's released: hyenas weren't part of the plan and exist now only as a bleak reminder of what can happen if you don't make reservations when doing lunch at anna's on pico and wind up spending 37 minutes waiting in the bar for a table.

you have a bowl of "pure non-existance" and the first thing you add is a good thing, why adulterate it by throwing in something bad? Why have a bowl of perfect cake mix and throw poison in at the last minute

excellent question. the only sensible answer is: this is nothing a truly superior being would do.

hyenas weren't part of the plan and exist now only as a bleak reminder of what can happen if you don't make reservations when doing lunch at anna's on pico and wind up spending 37 minutes waiting in the bar for a table.

Could you put that into terms that those of us who don't live in L.A. can understand?

Pico and Sepulveda
Pico and Sepulveda
Doheny, Cohuanga (sp?), LaBrea Tar Pits
Lahoya, Sequoia, LaBrea Tar Pits

I think reading "A Prequel to Genesis" has alot of potential to be interesting, but I would have difficulty understanding it if most of it is written in odd metaphors like that as well.

Could you put that into terms that those of us who don't live in L.A. can understand? Pico and Sepulveda Pico and Sepulveda Doheny, Cohuanga (sp?), LaBrea Tar Pits Lahoya, Sequoia, LaBrea Tar Pits

sorry. the place is really incidental (altho it's notta bad place to take a working lunch) to the consequence of a combination of bad planning, an extra carafe of wine and impatience (if notta bad attitude).

ya got em all right except for cahuenga & la jolla. anna's isn't that far from the celebrated intersection btw.